E153: The Potential of Bitaxe Pleb Mining, Does proof-of-work "work" for new chains, The Rat Inscription, Nostr

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Very humble person, Charlie.

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I remember what slaughter people say. That's that's my entire job description.

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That is all I do too. I'm just a humble podcaster and an asker of dumb questions.

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Just like you for the most part, this is what we do.

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But welcome back everybody to the Bickelweathy Kickback. It's Labor Day. So it's a holiday.

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So we're getting paid double time today. You know, double of nothing is still freaking nothing.

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We only got a thing money. We only got to put the money three ways instead of four this time.

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Yes, exactly.

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100%

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Uh, but we're just talking as we do and we have I have no to think to talk about lots of stuff around poop of work today.

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Mining. We're bringing back fractal again. It could so interesting.

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But you guys talk about something that involves a rodents. Something called the rat.

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I don't what in the world is this?

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Oh, how do you say the rat? How do you say it from the outside perspective? Because I can't say it's shortly.

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Okay.

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I'm thinking. Yeah.

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Back before Reinscription was really a thing and before there was anybody doing this,

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Donnie had this idea that I've got a rat inscription that I'm going to send to people and kind of handhold them

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and they can inscribe rat related things onto this inscription and it's become

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um, uh, it become kind of a who's who of ordinals and this great yearbook.

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I think community project of the most reinscribed asset I think, right?

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I think it is and that's what I was trying to say earlier. And I'll go back to like what the rat is

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in a sec. But when you bake a parent child collection,

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did you go to the parent on ordinals.com? And let's say there are 200 children or something like that.

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It breaks it up into two pages. There's only a hundred per page. Nobody's ever reinscribed

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more than a hundred things. So now that there are a hundred and one on it, it didn't go to a second page.

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There's no pagination or page separation of reinscriptions because it's never

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like been an issue to do that. But if we have a thousand inscriptions at the end of this year on the rat,

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this is one long tail of rats that doesn't get pageed off, which is funny. We just didn't know

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that was going to happen. And over the course of doing this, we've exposed a lot of like weaknesses

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in marketplaces and wallets indexing and displaying one, that or one, UTXO that has a ton of

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inscriptions back to into it. So we're just like we're kind of breaking stuff along the way because

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it was early and nobody was really using reinscriptions for anything. And still it's kind of

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not except for clerical items, I guess, unlike ordns are most things are reinscribed and some

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of the gamified things like game of blocks, used reinscription in order to indicate game plates.

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What was the rat was about? I was on a space one day. I bought this my head like 20 years ago

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and I can't form memories. But I was like, what happens if I try to draw something from memory?

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Like, what if I draw myself as a rat? What if I came out, it wasn't like, it turns out it

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comes out, it's like a no rat in every rat. There's no characteristics really at all except

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it's like a line drawn batch. It doesn't really look like any specific rats.

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And then I thought to myself, I wonder what other people think of when they think of rat? Like what

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pops into their heads because they can't separate their experience in the past from their

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current experience now, where I can't bring my experience, the past into my current experience.

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So what would the difference be in what they see versus what I see? As a fun way to explore

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what reinscription can do other than building like three different like data trees or something like that

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is to pass it around and let people scribble on it. So we did that for a while, I got stuck

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in a bunch of wallets and a year later, it's now in Sanchez wallet and he does all the reinscribing

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of people's submissions. But we're still just sort of like annually taking submissions of what

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people think of when they think of rats. And really not saying no to anyone because that's not the

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point of Bitcoin or expression or art or whatever. There's a one of the most recent ones is just

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two naked feet holding a rat in between them. And I'm like, I don't see the value of that,

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but I don't have to. That's not the point. One is that someone else saw that, right?

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Then I had a 101 inscriptions on it. But I think is that as I've seen most described that.

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And it just, I just can't just, I got wrath, the ord client and get out of maintainer.

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Interested in it, which is, I was here the first big is a hand now, you're somebody down here,

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but like, you know, eight here, like celebrity if they're only two eight here people being

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half in KC. Yeah, this is the first one. Or if it's like you're a half-casey an error and there's

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something that's the first of that group. But honestly, like the first eight people to

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describe on it were Sanch, LIFO, GIP, who else? I don't know, whatever, there's like 10 devs

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for people. He knows zero is on there too. It's big. I'm such a cool community project. And I

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remember like little weeklong events where it got stuck in someone's wallet or something. And then

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months. Yeah. Man, it was split a UTX show, send it out. It was, it's been this great story

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and it's taken on a life of its own and I just love that you started it. So it keeps, keep

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living on. Yeah, that's pretty exciting. That is so dope. And just for people, because like,

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I have to think about like recursion and like in we inscriptions, we inscriptions are like a,

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it's like a stacking of the paper, right? Like the top is the top one, always the one that

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gets presented. So the most recent manuscript. First one, the choice. The first one is always the one

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that gets displayed because so the, so the original is one that we show is, and then you have

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to click on the explorer page and you can page dance. Okay. Yeah. You're listed on our.io,

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but they're displayed in full onwardmills.com. So you can click individually on the

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inscriptions that are re-inscriptions on our.io, but only the first one shows. And onwardmills.com,

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all of them show Ian Chronological Order from Circus to Best. Got it. That's cool. Yeah. And I like the,

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I remember seeing someone was doing this thing called like the conjuring or something. There's

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like a very ominous name. But it was about, I don't think it was in Bitcoin. It was in E. But it was like

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you had to send this asset like a thousand times for the conjuring to happen. And then once

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it gets stuck, it's like the viral loop does. But there's something about this for like a social loop

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that's like you pass it around and it has proven on and once it enters the threshold like

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everybody wins and one gets there, drop it whatever it is that it's a pretty cool mechanism that

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no one really uses and you're just doing it because of freaking curiosity. It's fun. Yeah. And there's

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like there's a collection of 70 pieces, the 69 others is in the rat. That I've been given out to friends

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that I think are cool. I like a lot. And some of them I kept around and I re-inscribed

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something else on them. And others I sent to artists like the first seven. I think it's distributed.

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I gave them to people and made them. And it was people from other chains, it was far.

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Eight them re-inscribed a piece of their own on this thing. And we're, yeah, it's from.

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So like we, it started out and I think I auctioned the first three and gave 90% of the money to the

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Open Ordinal Institute. There were a lot of things that ended up being cool about this, but didn't

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catch like there wasn't enough activity where people thought they could make money off of it.

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So it sort of fizzled out. But it did, but it was supposed to be good at that time.

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And there's still room, there'll mess around with it. That's, I think, in sick.

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You're here to kick your brand down. Cool. Let's, okay, there's jumping into some,

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that's a banger opener for sure. I like this. But let's talk about the poof of work stuff.

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Fractyl continues to be a hot topic. There's a bunch of topics we could touch on.

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But I want to start with, and it happened in the last episode of like,

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poof of work seems like a bad idea for me anyways. A bad idea for other chains because of how

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competitive it is to the L1. It's hard to compete with Bitcoin. So there's this, like,

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lingering question of does poof of work work for new chains? Or is it kind of doomed to fail or

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be centralized? Or all these kind of open questions? And Charlie used that something on the pot last

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time of like, I think all miners should be selling the Bitcoin, which kind of becomes like, it's a pretty

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good token reveal mechanism because you're always bringing it back into the market. So maybe it

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does work, but I'm just curious, like, first broadly before we could have been a frackel stuff. Like,

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how do we think about poof of work working when it's so telegraphed? You know, people are

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going to kind of fight on it. I feel it's so much of how we got to where we are in Bitcoin's existing

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proof of work model is very path dependent. I will actually wax a little Bitcoin maxi here and

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adopt some of the language that I think many Bitcoin maxis use to talk about Bitcoin's genesis

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in that it is kind of this, like, inception moment, which is irreplicable. Never say never,

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but like it is a very we had a very unique first 10 to 15 years of Bitcoin where it kind of relied

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upon it not being understood as this valuable asset by many people and because of that it allowed the

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proof of work, like component of it to develop and and build into this multi-billion dollar revenue

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business on it is and it's I don't think I see that being replicatable.

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We'll see if you look, if you want to look back at other cryptocurrencies which have tried to do this,

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they're they usually falter in a couple ways, one which is that they can't bootstrap from zero

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from the hobbyist to enthusiast to part-time hobbyist enthusiast professional to professional

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to highly industrialize. You just cannot recreate that path dependency and adoption path

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of a network anymore and that's almost a prerequisite for these networks to be bootstrap.

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So then the other one is because of that, anything that is proof of work is going to bend towards

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specified business models specifically the bitmanes of the world who produce the actual computers which

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do this and that has led it to a number of different cryptocurrencies which are proof of work which

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appear to be fair but are actually more kind of propelled by the schpicks and shovels sellers of those

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businesses which I don't think is bad I just think we should be very aware that there is a long

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graveyard of things that led up to various proof of work cryptocurrencies before we got to Caspa

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which is the hot proof of work cryptocurrency right now. Harold it has the second coming of Bitcoin

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and yet I don't see how it is any different than the graveyard of other cryptocurrencies like

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before. So proof of work is very special. It's very unique. It's the best kind of consensus mechanism

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I think that we have but yeah I think it's just a very good bet to be very skeptical about

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new proof of work networks just adding long term adoption to bootstrap and to proliferation phase.

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So that's my long answer about that question.

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That's not a useful people like that because if you're watching if you're watching this and I'm

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shooting on Caspa I'm sorry but like reality guys like this is not a cryptocurrency you own in five years

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this is just the reality of it. Maybe maybe I'm in a bubble because I don't even know of Caspa

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so that I got to go Google show not behind the eight ball whatever the heck that is but it's like the

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narrative it's it's the eat classic or the or the whatever the mineral people are also kind of on this

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train but I like mineral so yeah I'm I'm curious about your thoughts right I've had

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amity quack and it's done because you're kind of newer here so like it seems to me that

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the big part of the charm of Bitcoin was that it would started at CPU and moved to GPU and then

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like to solve problems and move to ASIC and then ASIC sort of run on commercial ASIC and price

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action run on commercial in ticked out people which is going to partly nicely into our

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next section that we're going to do a thingpond home mining is it path that to Bitcoin success was

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very specifically because of every single thing about it I think like from my reading of it

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sort of decide to fire something else up to try to emulate that kind of there's like it's like photo

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copying a photo copy we're eventually down the line you're just kind of

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you're emulating something that's sort of like unemulatedable in a way and I don't see the difference

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or the benefit rather in proof of work consensus for things like tactile or anything at the moment

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that's starting out and has the baby mo that newer chains are going for because they have a team

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they have a company they have a pre-mind they're like nothing about them is like Bitcoin except

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for in one case the scripting language so like it's like a shadow of a shadow it's like look dad I

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can do a I'm going to have a mobile alone with you especially one more that's like the bubbles

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coming out of it next to your dad and not really rolling the lawn you know instead of

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feels like to me I don't know and I'm not trying to like speak it live any of this stuff because

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it's well beyond my technical knowledge to actually poke holes in it but from like a theoretical

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perspective it just feels like it's missing a lot of the initial points and maybe even the end goal

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that Bitcoin has or had yeah I think if you consider that the the best blockchains are going to be

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the most emergent over the course of their lifetime so blockchains which are high work

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which are concepted and launched in this like capital intensive infrastructure intensive way

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I'm not saying they don't work it's just I'm very skeptical that they're going to be these open

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networks just by the nature of how they launch and so I actually am quite fond of youth

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you know crucifying me because it has been fairly organic as much as Max is like the

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criticizes Genesis like it's had a pretty interesting like path dependent adoption to where it is

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I don't think I just don't think you can replicate Bitcoin so trying to brand something as an

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improved Bitcoin I'm like yeah there's probably there might be better ways of like producing blocks

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I don't think you can get there for the time being maybe ever

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it's kind of like there are better protocols we could have built the internet on better than TCPIP

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but the reason that is one of the protocols which back in the entire communications layer that is

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the internet is because of like it's openness and its simplicity and just the way it happened to be

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there at that time in the building and adoption the internet and why remains a standard today

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so yeah that's kind of like something to be said but like the 15 years of through for a

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history that Bitcoin has already like trying to start something now you're always going to be 15

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years behind that level of like having to unravel something right now is that replicate it because like

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you know imagine you could tell investors that they can go back to 2010 and they can

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mine Bitcoin you're going to have a hundred billion dollars worth more stuff mining Bitcoin

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and you just cannot recreate that um the other component is actually as I mentioned

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youth there is a bit of like a kind of like a come to Jesus moment on ethra now with proof of

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stake in the merge there's a lot of disillusionment which weirdly enough almost arrives at this view

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that um I see some of the most the foremost tip of the sphere ethra researchers saying maybe proof

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of work actually is the best way to produce blocks proof of stake produces blocks largely

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deterministically proof of work is a probabilistic block production technique proof of stake

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is a permissioned is a permissioned network technically at a fundamental level it practices

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not that way whereas proof of work is an open way of acquiring tokens these are very core

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differences in first principles places up these networks start from yeah I mean um you can't test on

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it which is like if you can front run if you know that Bitcoin's gonna be big in 2010 and you can do

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clock can you me okay I sound so great okay I'm tripping if I'm having some weight I

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thought anyways um we're doing there's yeah so you can if you can front run it because of those first

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few years are so important when it comes to like supply coming on there if you can

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just go super hard the first four years and then turn everything off like you can have a ton of

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the supply and control the market so that you see it's with the token launch as two which is like

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whatever one tries to be early money comes in token goes crazy maybe it gets traction

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probably not and then it slowly dies out and then like it's a cliff and it just drops off and

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it seems like proof of work change that trying mimic that and they're kind of like telegraphed and

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known they do the same thing you just have a bunch of more friction on the front end to buy

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machine is good stuff but it ends up in the same destination um yeah throughout yeah I keep

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harping on this this idea of path dependency of adoption and emergent adoption of these decentralized

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networks as something you just cannot you have to roll back the clock in time to go back and launch

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a different better Bitcoin it's almost impossible so you know never say impossible but um I just

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think for the foresee the foreseeable future it is uh Bitcoin is the proof of work network and I meant

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and I mentioned this like I think I say that I think the merge for eth was largely driven by

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a recognized instance of this reality that this is a winner take most or all uh regime when it comes

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to proof of work and I think that was actually smart for eth to two although it's resulted in

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what is currently kind of a disillusioned developer landscape um one more one more quick question

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on this and this is for you Charlie because you mentioned does a graveyard of proof of work change

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trying to bootstep et cetera you know I've heard of this in the narrative of like merge mind

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chains like name coin or whatever that like they try and work you look at the data

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merge mining becomes very centralized very quickly if just like two pools merge mine they have

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like all of the all of the hash rates you will it's all these things kind of have a hard

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it's hard to get the centralization and it's hard to get users to have an a fees to make it

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worthwhile so like what do you I don't know the context of this like what's the brief history it's

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like the 90s second history of like proof of work graveyard and like why is bootstrap

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et cetera big issue for these things I can I don't know if I can name but um I think grin was one

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there's dash but dash is still big white coin doge coin flip to power and then got merge

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round with light coin which has actually been pretty successful um name coin every other merge

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mind side chains the various forks of uh eath classic remember when the merge happened um cast

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was a big right now manero has another challenge where I know I'm just gonna get absolutely

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dumpster by these manero people if it was like narrow keeps trying to be asic resistance and

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CPU mindable which is a noble task is just that um these it tends to bend towards asic

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eventually once it becomes profitable and scaled and you have asic specialized machines come in

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so they have to keep forking to maintain that there's really only one chain that has maintained

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uh before at scale and continues to uh be proliferated out and that's Bitcoin the others are kind of

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tacked on and really struggle for identity even like coin like which I think like coin just has a

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network effect but I mean okay well that so does Bitcoin but you know like coin has this

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emeritus status and proof of work blockchains and uh I think really kind of functions more as

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testing it what do I think the future merge minding is I have no idea are you look at marathon

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who says we're gonna just we're just gonna get right to the punch and we're just gonna be the

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people who merge mind these and it's us other people can participate I think that's a smart idea

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it's one of the more pragmatic realistic I'll say like real politics approaches to launching a

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aside chain um in which case here I am now this line of logic implicitly endorses Rackdoll so

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okay well let's set before we get up to Factor let's briefly touch on this bit axe kind of

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flood mining uh decentralized mining initiative because uh ZK shark posted something of OMB fame

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about we're gonna try and decentralize through this like grassroots effort and bid axe if people

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don't know like these like self-contained many devices the kind of like lottery machines or they have

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very little hashes so they're more of a toy with anything but the idea is like if you get

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tensed chain of these out there and the wild that it equals you know some part of the network

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it sounds good on paper but some people are very critical is it gonna go anywhere so

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I know we can get a lot of stuff on this I have to go for it yeah okay cool I was walking around

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at mining disrupt and I was with ZK and we were asking the tables just as like sort of like I don't

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know it seemed like a joke at the time to me but they had all these like oh mining devices that

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I didn't really take much thought of in my head and we were like can we order like

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200 of these and they were like actually no like mainly have like 80 of them globally I think and

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he was like okay what about thousands like put it in order for a thousand is he possible to get

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a thousand of these and I think his point and asking all of this was not because he wanted to do

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one run of these and like distribute them to a thousand people and be like look at us go

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we decentralized money he's like there's no production for this if it is a reality where somewhere in

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the future the half-bar can be this much higher that a collective is like eight billion people

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when the pale plan is population is 16 billion if they all have these instead of scratch off

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lottery tickets because people actually do stole my bucket does happen people hit with lottery miners

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it's if the odds are like equally as good as winning lottery and it has the benefit of doing this thing

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that helps the network not be controlled by like one entity even if it's like in a small way

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over the course of time like if next year it doesn't outweigh and pull

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course it won't that's silly to even think that we could do that but over the course of like

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decades like if we really get a shit about Bitcoin on a long term scale why wouldn't we start

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initiative is like this that like can't hurt you know that's that's my take on it

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I agree that part of part of um Bitcoin's part of its success is that there has been this

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ideological adherent component to it and ZK does he doesn't coin the term but he really

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like beats it in that of the economically irrational participant I think this is important to

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zone in on because it's largely going to be economically irrational to try to

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like run these types of independent initiatives but that's also not the point if you can

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reliably have a percent or half a percent of the network be this kind of like uncompromising

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like group of folks whether it's a small group of people or a bunch of individuals like

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I think that's pretty significant because that's a block a day um that's a block a day and if you can

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get whatever transactions in that block per day that's uh that's two to four thousand transactions

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of freedom transactions I think that's very important for that that that that heart beat to stay

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alive but ZK talks about the bit axe which I think is um there's also a graveyard of home

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mine here home miners um that lead up this point but I think the bit axe is different and that is

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it's actually uh zeroing it on the right model and design for this particular stage and

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proof of work um I was talking to Luke Dash Jr about this half a year ago and I asked Luke

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what his favorite ace of us this is at a private mining conference in person we didn't talk about

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or goals I talked to him about mining I asked him what his favorite miner was and he said the bit axe

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so this is one of the things are like I think like real OG people who are not economically rational

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Luke in particular they get the bit axe it's uh it is the rallying cry it's like the flag

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that you carry for the independent like cyphropunk uh component component bitcoin

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you're telling you to financially irrational as you say financially irrational

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participants economically economically economically economically irrational but it's like

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generally going to be it is because everyone that I've talked to so far who doesn't really understand

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like the long-term goal of something like this is going well why don't we just get something

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with higher hash power plug it in and home and then put it into its a miner or sort of a tool

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and the answer to that is you won't make any money that way you'll probably lose money that way

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and but like you have to unplug your dryer and run that shit into like a 240 volt if you could

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find a 120 to do that in it's still gonna soak up power you stuff to it's like a microwave for

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something it's like I don't know hundred dollars a month or whatever it's you're not going to make

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a hundred dollars month to be that you're going to be hobby projects and you can do those is just like

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to it's not plug and play to do that I'm more talking for like most people they need something

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which is plug and play which fits into their existing like otherwise it will not happen yeah

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and in the case of like I think I know one family who has bought a lottery ticket and one of

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substantial amount of money over a million dollars and this is 40 years into my life I know one

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family personally that I like used to visit their home because that's ever happened to get people

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still buy lottery tickets every day they don't even know someone who's ever won it's that

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irrationally untalable in problem you you also don't have to it all you know if you have a

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smaller rig and our consumers you know because you wish consumers are power it's like

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a more or some whole minimal cost also you don't have to lottery mine that is just happens

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that most bid access are lottery mining you can contribute yeah you can contribute this hash

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power to a pool which has itself economically irrational goals such as processing of

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extinction transactions but but that's a that's a very important dynamic a component of people

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to be participating the decline network yeah I think the economic irrational is understated

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the lottery is a good example where it's like would you buy a lottery ticket it's kind of like

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it's a little sliver of hope is it is it crazy for sure 100 thousand percent but it's you're

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trained in five bucks for a little bit of hope anything could happen and like I can totally see

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like having a bid acts on this show up over here whenever I look at it I'm like hey man you never know

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it could be if you put that a target but three thousand of those in every target across America

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and so you have X odds of winning $300,000 every single day that you have this plugged in at home

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and it's fun to cost you five to ten dollars a month to run and it's 200 bucks to buy off the

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shelves like now people would be like Bitcoin's a scam but give it a few years and it's just it seems

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like why wouldn't that work like it it seems stupid now but I just don't understand why it would

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work and there's another component here which is the overall messaging particularly that ZK communicates

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in his thought piece um one of my main themes as past couple years has been that I think we've

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pretty much reached total dressable market capitalization of people who are going to be swayed

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into Bitcoin because of like last cycle's maxing narratives um how do you how do you reinvigorate

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or invigorate people to do similar things such as pleb mining under which narratives and ZK is

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very good at this very good at creating narrative and communicating this I also have not really heard

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the pleb mining narrative from the angle of it fights against perceived or objectively real

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centralization across the mining vertical and that I think is incredibly important because that

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adds an extra dimension to economic irrationality with justifies it so I think ZK is a there's a couple

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of paragraphs as ZK has which I don't really agree with like I don't um as much as I love his

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um energy arbitrage angle like I think that's kind of more of a big boy institutional infrastructure

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play but like that's a sidebar like that's not part of the core art I don't think I don't really

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think that works for like the home miner for for the time being yeah I mean he's just trying

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to point out that you could like sneak one of these in and not even notice the difference like

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if you if you live in an apartment building that has included electricity you're not going to plug

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in it to 40 because they're going to take you out like you can't plug in a real miner because they'll

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kick you out but if you plug in this stupid thing that was going to cost you five bucks a month

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and now cost you nothing you can sneak it in under like that's where the arbitrage comes in it's like

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get a mental level not an actual pocket but level I think yeah we're going to see like

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what is it the godfather where he had put the gum behind the toilet and the restaurant and

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the electrical find that is going to be like a million bin access hiding all over the globe

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and he said all kinds of workplaces and I can see it I know I think that's recently

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so yeah yeah and the one thing I like to is you know ordinal specific it's this new

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way to use Bitcoin and like Casey had an intention but it caused so many other things like

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second third order that you would never see coming one in then being maybe a this is a new floor

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for like speed price for example where it's like did he solve a security it's a security problem

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not fully but we have glimpses of what it's going to look like and you would have never guessed that

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per se and so getting a bunch more people to put mine I mean I'm already feeling it we're like

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I read a book on mining and I'm like I had this heater over on the wall can I replace that with

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like an S9 and like heat this room enough that it makes sense I would never have thought of that

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if I hadn't put that in my head and if you get a bunch of people to do that they're going to be

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sitting there watching you know dexter season three and they'll be like hmm I can probably put a

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decor in my right there that might work and that wouldn't happen otherwise I also think that

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so okay even all of a sudden even all of a sudden let's say this does become a huge room

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but and it's still doesn't even barely register on the decentralization meter what what we see is

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a lot of the pleb movements result in the net increase in hands-on and high concept

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understanding about Bitcoin works and and one of Bitcoin's strengths has been that that participants

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understand it really well I actually think that one of the reasons that mining has become

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like it is and centralized at certain points is because a lot of people didn't really understand what's

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happening and the more people in the more participants you have who understand how it works and why it

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works and why certain components are important is one of the prerequisites for a healthy and

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decentralized network so it like a lot of Bitcoin's game theory relies upon transparent communication

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information a lot of the Bitcoin's game theory assumes that Bitcoin's theme market is representative

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of what it takes to have block inclusion if you do away with that if you don't have a few

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representative if you market representative of like how you can get a transaction to block then

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Bitcoin is now the shadowy network and that's not a fair network so we need to like the more

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people who understand the attack vectors the better I think one of the big issues with the maximum

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is that it made a lot of the narrative myopic and said we're rolling it to talk about Bitcoin's

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attack surface in these dimensions and not these because these are socially acceptable and these are

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we just have them in watching other block chains so we're unfamiliar with like how the struggles they've

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had so if if getting a if running a bit acts makes people understand mining very much like way more hands on

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then that is worth it even if you lose everything like now you understand Bitcoin way better I think that's

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in that win you choose to just let you underdog well it's a little like your house

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but I don't know if you're in a lot of this but it just feels like yeah I don't know if it feels like

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something not worth putting in so far as it's just not like a destructive in any way I don't

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I don't I don't see anything yeah my all you just shout out my other guy at block space calling

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who I have a bit of a tattoo with we we kind of intentionally take opposite sides on this topic

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he has just seen so many things like this that it's like this just kind of falls into similar

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bucket for good reason but the but and and he might be right like this is a the game for who is

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a competitive big-one-matter just gets bigger and bigger bigger so that's always going to be an

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upper uphill battle it may not be winnable I just think if you don't throw in the town now throw in the

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town in the 50 years like we're only on normalizing this one thing open the door for many other

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things that could be home century Bitcoin mining tools like I don't know heating devices or

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washed like dryer like actual physical dryers that are in your basement to have to produce a ton of

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yeah they just and I have to do that I have two or three different versions of like retail marketed

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mining solutions here in my in my room right now actually this is just one more step towards

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something that actually does that and everybody's because we have so many things in our homes I've

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thought about this a lot and I don't really know if it does any value sounds like you've thought

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about this much there are a ton of things that we have simply to create heat and there's nothing

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doing work to produce that heat other than heating a coil there's just there's wasted energy

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there or wasted opportunity for recouping the energy awesome if this is something that

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normalizes that then I'm also for it yeah does the I'm just thinking about this does the physics work

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out like when it comes to second peer efficiency does the freaking coil I have my little wall heater

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at 1500 watts versus a whole minor makes sense so is it still just it doesn't net out

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it's one watt in my knowledge of it it depends on the current design of a6 don't lend themselves to

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like heat dispersion as you would make a heater because the coil is designed a coil and a heater

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a design site you can pass it through it and heat something was you would have to

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probably refactor the entire asic design for it to actually be a good heater and you see this like

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people who use the S9s to heat their like house reportment they kind of come up with these like

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contraptions to do that also they can be very loud it's like there's this so that is going to

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end to be you know for his air not be quiet if the way like it plugs at home yeah but like I you know

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I think there's it's very obvious like there's the other the largest output from bitcoin mining

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besides bitcoin is heat and this is one of the most underutilized resources what is it like

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30 to 40 percent of all energy in the world goes towards heating cooling um so

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that bitcoin mining fits very well into on a long enough timeline where we pick out all the

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efficiencies got it okay we got 10 minutes left on a little a lot of time do we want to discuss

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fractal magic you didn't talk a launch or wallets something you touched on uh don't I'm

387
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,880
open to any of or nostor nostors are going to save so if you're going to be for the fifth time

388
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:23,600
we can touch the nostor if you want to uh I like to never be nostor is on though are you guys on

389
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,880
nostor currently like using a daily no yes to the first note of the second

390
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,760
like having an accountant using nostor is separate my mind because everyone has a nostor account

391
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:40,800
they've given a shot over the past year but then yeah something happens like telegram or

392
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,480
ex-getting band-unbuzzle and everyone's like this is better to nostor is it and then I go check

393
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:54,400
it like it use a ham radio or like a cd radio if everything's off I'll go there

394
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,120
it's a perishing exactly you're on it now the the making of it works but you never yeah

395
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:06,080
yeah yeah so I'm the same way like I have it accounts I sometimes remember to go check it

396
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,560
and then I'm like there's nothing here really it's just a weird echo cable and I don't want

397
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,920
to deal with the friction of trying to like add people's endpubs and get my friends

398
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:22,800
this back like I haven't crossed that chasm yet so let me see enough and I hate to be that guy

399
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,920
but it's just it's difficult to understand how it works because not fed to you in the same way

400
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:35,440
that other social platforms I was listening to I was listening to a really interesting podcast

401
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:42,800
with James and Lop and Zack by the kasha I was listening to an interesting podcast with James and Lop

402
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:51,680
on the history of email and how email kind of got I was a captured but it just bent towards this

403
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:58,320
basically permission system or you it's almost impossible to run your email server now this to me

404
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:04,160
and they didn't talk about Nostor but I've heard comparisons made here this to me seems a lot like we

405
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:12,160
have similar a similar setting with email and Nostor in their genesis and similar incentives and

406
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:21,360
similar challenges it seems to me that Nostor hasn't structurally solved any of the

407
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:31,440
problems that email to be a pretty centralized service provider system unless I'm missing something

408
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,160
so look at this I don't know if it's actually long term solution and the short term like

409
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:44,000
yeah maybe for the next decade Nostor is a great great freedom tool I don't think it's I don't

410
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,120
know if I think it's a revolutionary product I'm fine I'm fine changing my opinion on this as I

411
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:55,920
learn more information about it though yeah I just thought I forgot who posted the graphic I feel like

412
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:02,320
it might have been jamsing of like a Nostor really looks like this that's like me sending data to

413
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:08,400
just like 10 siloed computers but they don't talk with each other so just like I have 10 carbon copies

414
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,920
and then the end user connects to one of those relays or maybe all 10 but there's no consensus

415
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:22,080
amongst data replication on that side so yeah it's made a pretty strong case that like you could see it

416
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:29,520
going long term centralized again where it's like the largest relays just become the truth again

417
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:35,120
and it's no different than having Google run a Nostor relay but you just trust a Google one because

418
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:42,000
it's always online and super fast and reasonable it has all your friends on it exactly so like

419
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:51,040
I could see that being the end game so it doesn't fit your solution yeah everything ends up there

420
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:59,680
the bigger problem seems to me is the existing structure of ISPs to me the way the thing that

421
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,760
Nostor is trying to solve is something that is actually a problem with the existing and at

422
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:12,320
service provider landscape and I don't know how you solve this I mean I I kind of understand

423
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:19,360
urban but I don't like fully like like at the level of like packet watching and like centralization

424
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:31,360
yeah yeah yeah I could see that so I don't know to me that's maybe Nostor is a step towards the path

425
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:38,320
of figuring out how to improve the landscape of ISPs being your window to the world but

426
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:45,440
I don't know we'll see interesting and one that's open to me is like

427
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,920
zapping is pretty cool like lightning and zaps is actually pretty interesting being able to like

428
00:41:53,920 --> 00:42:01,200
frictionlessly um the way I think about zaps is like it's a it's a it's a it's a much higher signal

429
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:10,480
of intent than alike so you have like a share a comment a retweet alike in like a hierarchy

430
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:17,200
and sending money is the highest signal possible that you liked that and so I could definitely see

431
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:23,840
algorithms of like this got the most likes sort by money and I think that's a paradigm

432
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,400
that hasn't got tracked on the internet to date largely because I don't want to put

433
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,360
a credit carder to have it charged for seven cents a thousand times but lightning works good for

434
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:40,720
that so I think that paradigm on a better social media platform is going to be big but

435
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:47,680
Nostor is the one right now so it's going to get traction because of that yeah dude the uh if we're

436
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,400
able to figure out the micro micro payments the lightning style micro micro payments like

437
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,600
oh man that's so cool I love doing that it's actually I love zapping on Nostor it's a

438
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,720
dick thing you throw a hundred thousand stats in a wall it used kind of zap indiscriminately

439
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:09,680
50 at a time it's so cool yep yep I've been I've been over the week and I re-read Zabos

440
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:16,800
mental transaction cost them like a payment paper from 1999 and holy shit um I've

441
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:22,800
glanced at it before but I haven't deep-dived Zabo like he gets a lot of love because he's an OGOG

442
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:28,560
he like I think he did bit gold and he works with very seminal papers but that dude is a fucking

443
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,400
genius like the way he wrote that paper it's hard to refute any of it it's so well articulated

444
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,080
because I'm trying to figure out how to make micro payments work for kind of our companies and like

445
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:45,840
try to bring us to life through my own kind of like will by being some help to some people um

446
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:52,160
but his argument is that like when whatever you do a transaction you have this you have like the

447
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:58,000
fees associated which is like the technological technological cost visa fees etc those are the smaller

448
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:03,600
fees of any transaction that you end up doing it's the mental things of like do I trust this person

449
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:10,400
kind of get a refund um is this worth it and micro payments make that way harder because you do it

450
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:16,960
way more often but there's something about Zabos which is like the the trade is very clear

451
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:23,280
I'm just giving you money because I liked that post so that one's easy and don't know what I was

452
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:29,600
thinking about is like um if you go to an arcade like cookie cheese or something you get this gift card

453
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:35,440
this game card you put 20 bucks on it and you're gonna spend that over the next hour and that's

454
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,800
a micro payment for 40 times over that that hour so there's something about time boxing

455
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,920
micro payment is super interesting I care even hour to go play in the playground go do a bunch of

456
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:53,280
random shit and then it closes down and you're gonna you know do whatever um but yeah I'm super

457
00:44:53,280 --> 00:45:00,000
the bullish on that space one of the features that strike the app from jackmallers had teased but never

458
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:08,400
released was this idea of streaming satoshies where you could stream a sat every second or something like that

459
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:16,400
to me this is one of the huge unlocks and it blows my mind that we don't have easy ways to do this

460
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:22,560
that I'm aware of and this is where networks like Bitcoin or Lightning or other similar networks

461
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:30,720
which we had a concept yet can like be amazing it is crazy that we have a bi-weekly payment

462
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:39,920
schedule as as common in the west um it's it we should it makes so much sense to be like streaming

463
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:46,400
in real time for work um yeah yeah it's interesting I mean there's been companies trying that there's

464
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,200
what the current one that's on the docket that's kind of like raised some money is called few satz

465
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:58,160
and we'll see if they achieve it but they're doing like data storage as service you can stream

466
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:05,280
for content um fountain which is like a podcast player love part of it they they allow you do this

467
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:12,080
where it's like a minute you listen you stream um yeah I like the idea this goes back to mental

468
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,920
cost though it's like it actually changes the way you view content so drastically that it needs

469
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,320
like a behavior change first because like the way Netflix works is it's just like page 15 bucks

470
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:30,560
cadact has to update movies you're only gonna watch 0.01% so that's your main calculus but if I could

471
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:37,200
pay you know two cents a minute it'd be like okay this movie's so issue it let me click off and

472
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:42,800
go watch the next thing I'm only out like a quarter and then I have to go to the next one and you

473
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:51,600
can like actually get a bottom really quickly um but I think it's we think like it kind of I guess

474
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,800
the hard part about streaming stats in that way is that you optimize for like is this good right now

475
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,080
and you might not get to the juicy part like maybe a movie starts slow and it has like a really

476
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,800
good ending like the six cents but it's like no this is this is boring I don't like or the owner of

477
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,360
the account is for the sake of Netflix anything the owner of the account is the person paying for

478
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,680
but there's six other people watching and I think that model is sale really quickly because people

479
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,680
was just turning on a walk away because the person who's actually paying for the thing is not the one

480
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:25,520
using it for the most part I'm sure that comes into play again somewhere any other guy's I too

481
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:32,560
I do want to say that I'm not talking about magic but I I I would agree that Jacob I think I actually

482
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:38,000
have not even read that paper I just looked at the headline and filed the way and I've heard

483
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,400
around around to it shout out to the Zabos of the world who wrote cool shit back in the day

484
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:50,320
which we just have kind of glossed over for God and it's a good it's called micro payments and

485
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:56,480
mental transaction costs that came out in May 1999 to 25 years ago I still hold that wow yeah

486
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:01,840
and he wrote some other good stuff even up through the late 2010s that I would highly recommend as well

487
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:13,200
McZabo is credited for a concepting smart contracts as well I think you did he was the one

488
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,000
that he was the one that said that a basic point of sale system is doing a very basic smart contract

489
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:24,400
when you run your credit card and it does something that's the background well yep so

490
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:31,360
talking about that yeah my goat podcast guest for sure is if he ever came back to Gonzalo do I don't think

491
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:36,160
he's been seen for a long time he's kind of dropped off the rate or I think he gave like a

492
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:43,040
toss on Twitter was like 2021 and he gave a talk at the 2022 Bitcoin conference and that's

493
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:50,640
the last I think he's been seeing oh his last actual post is a repost of BTCC has who is the

494
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:58,320
vice president of the Oklahoma Bitcoin Association who micro flex okay that's I think that's

495
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,280
the podcast y'all we should buy a drop right there shout out for 30 seconds on magic eating token

496
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:08,080
just for food so top for next time real quick yeah is it something I've I think I finally

497
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:12,000
digested what they're doing with something just like a token drop but no token drop is just a token

498
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:18,480
drop it sounds a lot to me like optimism's retroactive public goods funding idea where they get

499
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:23,920
people to the motivate people rather to buy billed daps in an ecosystem and reward them once it

500
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:29,760
is already provided some sort of value to the network that they have played out in front of the

501
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,160
well to build the daps on but I think that what magic eating is doing is trying to get people

502
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:40,880
to build on an open source platform daps for encouraging runes ordinals and if tea trading blah blah

503
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:49,120
whatever and making this emifoundation to pay those things to pay the creators of the daps once they have

504
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,760
already created traffic in store I don't know where it's going to live and I know what this applies

505
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,240
going to be on only the price speculation stuff but I think that's the concept and it works for optimism

506
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:04,400
so I don't know why it wouldn't work there too does it well did they there recently announced the

507
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,800
optus one though right they haven't they haven't been doing it this is something they've announced recently

508
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:15,920
that they're like the optus or you're over a year I think I've been watching because I had to write

509
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,400
some ways to I used to work for a media company that did interviews with like layer two isn't

510
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:25,040
the projects and I had to interview a bunch of optimistic role up to do a bunch of research on them

511
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,920
and I was on the optumism website reading about this maybe they just launched it in reality recently

512
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:35,680
and I thought it was up and running about a year ago I'm not gonna say cut it I don't know what

513
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:49,040
they were relaunching I hope it resurrects the token frenzy again but yeah it's going to

514
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:56,240
gonna call a lot of people to download the magic eating wallet I'm interested to see how this

515
00:50:56,240 --> 00:51:03,760
shakes up the wall landscape so I use everything I use everything and I store all of my important

516
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:14,320
stuff in uh well spare a wallet type things so I have every wallet across every wallet it's just

517
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:20,320
it's buckshot everywhere you know no one confided but me and I can't do anything because it's just

518
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,760
everywhere it's all of the place it's every platform you don't know where it is they the

519
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,520
rinja tax really can't be to find it either yeah yeah yeah yeah tell you but I can find it

520
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:33,920
well you say I don't know put me near it I'll tell you exactly yeah you can't rent your

521
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:40,640
tax somebody if they don't know either so it's perfect yeah right that's a seo zoo quote not to

522
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:49,200
sun to quote some uh yeah if the best smoke screening in astronomy is if you yourself don't know what you're

523
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:56,480
doing hmm yeah yeah yeah well you also have a bledering dump it out it also has been like oh like don't

524
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,520
don't they're right hand notes on left hand is doing it it's like I don't know what that shit is

525
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:06,800
do I drive it without that I don't think it's gone there explaining uh uh to uh to uh to what two of

526
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:16,960
two uh multi-sig yeah that's the percent we had of his time yeah legend absolute legend all right I think that's

527
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:18,960
the part thanks guys